The Backlash Begins…
arun on Jun 19 2007 at 1:08 pm | Filed under: control & connection, empowerment & trust, family diary, green living, health & nutrition, links, organics, parenting, unregulating food, tv, unschooling, wellness | Click here to go HOME | or find out about SUBSCRIBING TO THE PIT |
I was starting to think I was being paranoid about my expected response to the article I wrote for Kindred magazine. Kindred is one of my favourite parenting resources and my impression is that its readership is into natural parenting, simple living, Steiner (Waldolf) and such things.
A friend just let me know about this response from Joanne, the editor of Nourished Magazine (a publication based on the Weston Price approach to nutrition.)
Couple of quotes from her:
- Taking the un-schooling philosophy to the ridiculous, this guy was relying on his daughter’s intuition and instinct to guide her to good food choices. Does he think his daughter is more instinctive and intuitive than countless native people, such as our Aboriginal peoples, who when given the options of life giving bush foods to their alternative, easy access white flour and sugar, chose the latter?
or later there is…
- What a menagerie of missed opportunities to learn of life. This child could experience her connection to the earth by going to the garden to choose some of her meal. She could learn creative planning and problem solving by preparing the grains for tomorrow’s meal today. She could learn cooperation and create a sense of belonging as she helps her mother and father build the meal and clean the dishes. She could learn that companies who make these foods don’t necessarily have her interests at heart and her parents will protect her and teach her to protect herself from these selfish people. She could miss the simple joy of giving, when she plans and makes a meal for another.
I regret that I did not explain myself well enough in the article as Joanne seems to miss the point. Our daughter can and does a lot of what she raises here. That is created by our own actions and the environment we therefore create. However she does not have to do any of it.
Radical unschooling does not happen in a vacuum, it happens in the context of loving, thoughtful parents. We are not just dumping our kids in a lolly shop or infront of a TV and forgetting about them. We empower them, respect them and facillitate them in making decisions in the context of a loving, connected friendship. In that sense it is the most hands on approach of being hands off that I have encountered.
Anne & I are living an organic, healthy lifestyle. When we are on top of things: we sprout our own wheatgrass, we distill our water, we have even had a love hate relationship with a raw food diet.
I am currently on day 14 of a 30 day detox – Im down to one meal of organic fruit & veg a day and lots of bentonite and psyllium husk, herbs and colloidal minerals!!! M our daughter has seen this and we discuss it, she has even helped me work out what I can have for my “one meal”. Even at the best of times we aspire to make fresh, organic vegie juice every morning and get there about 70% of the time.
The food we do buy is the most healthy option available based on respecting our daughters’ choices. So much of the ice cream she eats is rice ice cream from the local organic shop. Meanwhile we are planting a vegie patch with our daughter in the coming weeks. Actually Anne is lobbying to live on a farm!
We are committed to living a healthy, nutritious lifestyle in touch with our environment and bodies. AND we are also committed to facillitating our daughter to learn about our decisions through our example, friendship and connection as opposed to any form of coercion. We are committed to empowering her own decision making process in the context of a strong and trusted relationship between us.
We have definite opinions about food, nutrition and so on. Ultimately though we are not prepared to enforce this on our daughter. We do however share it with her respectfully when and where appropriate in ways that are appropriate. Yes it means she sometimes makes food choices we would not, however we are maintaining a connection with her and showing her our values by example rather than any externally enforced guides that disappear when we are off the scene.
We have found that a real and healthy relationship with food can flourish when you take issues of control, emotion, rewards, threats of punishment out of the picture.
I thank Joanne for her lovely recipe suggestions at the end of her article which we and our daughter will no doubt enjoy. Maybe it was too much to ask at the end of the article I wrote where I said, “[I] hoped that one day our Steiner friends will forgive us… who knows, maybe even understand us.”
Unfortunately the opportunity for appreciating another world view that shares some of the same values has certainly seemed to have slipped through Joanne’s fingers… maybe next time hey?
Forbidding *as much as or more than* inherent addictive quality can create neurosis and obsession. It can be argued that in some cases physical danger of indulging — refined sugar, for instance — is far less than the danger of forbidding to the spirit and psyche.
My husband grew up in a household were food was strictly controlled — he was allowed to eat only the most basic, unrefined foods made from scratch, and he knew why: because it was best for him and the environment. When he had his own spending money and could take off on his bike and it was found that he’d bought candy at the corner store, he was guilted about it. The result was that when he finally did gain real freedom, when he left home, he rebelled. He still has issues concerning food.
This is why the more freedom the child can handle, the better. This doesn’t mean that we intentionally expose our children to dangerous things before they’re developmentally ready and just let them go at it. If they’re too young to understand the danger of something, you just don’t make it available; in that way you avoid both kinds of dangers, those to body *and* spirit. In the case of something that is readily available in most settings, like processed food, you can’t avoid both dangers fully; either you give in to one or the other fully, or you compromise in the hopes of minimizing the damage.
In the case of someone who absolutely forbids her children to eat anything but the most healthy foods, she is taking a very real risk of them developing a psychologically unhealthy relationship to food, with an obsession with forbidden foods that wouldn’t have been there otherwise.
You delicious boat rockers!!!! Learning about your radical unschooling approach has caused me to really have a good look at how I parent and why. Your article is a gift to all of us -who are open to new possibilities.
Hi Arun
I read her article. It really just seemed a lame excuse to push her recipes (which I quite liked by the way). So I didn’t see the point in validating her by leaving a comment there.
Don’t think that you could have been clearer about your lifestyle. There are always those who will choose to ignore the obvious.
Jade
Arun - my question to you is “where do you actually draw the line?”. When would you intervene to protect your child?
I can’t see anywhere here where you address the point of the other article, that sugar is a poison and not a food. Are you disputing that? The evidence is strongly against you on that if you are. I think your going out and purposefully filling your pantry with dangerous and developmentally debilitating substances in the guise of foods is completely irresponsible, and as a parent I cannot even fathom how you could do that. That is completely insane to me.
Linda - How do you seperate body and spirit and psyche? Wouldn’t the consumption of poison effect the psyche? Sugar dependancies can easily lead to drug dependancies true?
This article is worth a read if you are interested in the dangers of sugar… http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/killer_sugar_suicide_with_a_spoon_sugar_dangers.htm
And this 147 ways that sugar damages your health… http://www.nancyappleton.com/pages/damages.html
I get the sense that all of your intentions are good, just somewhat misguided.
Steve, are you a dad?
Im honestly curious how your children are going with what I assume to be your families “no sugar rule”?
Do your kids respect your decision on their behalf? Do they maintain your rule when you are not around? How do you police it? What happens when they go to other kids parties… or are they only allowed to go parties with the same “no sugar” rule? What happens when they go to the corner shop without you?
Im not trying to be rude… although according to you Im misguided and insane… but Im interested to see how your intentions are communicated to your children?
Im particularly curious as previously I wrote about several reports one which concluded that,
“Restricting access focuses children’s attention on restricted foods, while increasing their desire to obtain and consume those foods. Restricting children’s access to palatable foods is not an effective means of promoting moderate intake of palatable foods and may encourage the intake of foods that should be limited in the diet.”
The blog post about controlling food in children is here
Arun - did you read my comment at all mate?
“as a parent”… that would mean I am a dad wouldn’t it, especially with a name like Steve?
“where do you actually draw the line?”… Can’t really see where you directly answered this. Perhaps you do not draw the line anywhere? I don’t think that is true. Perhaps it is time for you to fess up?
“sugar is a poison and not a food. Are you disputing that?”… again you avoid the direct question. How are we going to have a healthy debate if all you are interested in is picking out the faults in someone elses argument and not even recognising the strengths in it and admitting you have missed the point yourself?
“That is completely insane to me.”… I never said you are insane Arun and I am sorry that you find it necessary to take things so personally, I was referring to one behaviour of yours that you are trying to inspire other parents with. I believe this is an insane practice because it has no logic behind it. Why would you expose and literally encourage your child to consume something poisonous?
Now I will pay you the respect of answering you directly…
“Im honestly curious how your children are going with what I assume to be your families “no sugar rule”?”… Very well and yes your assumtion is correct. We have educated our children that there are alternatives that not only taste better, but also feel better. In fact we find that if the do on the odd occasion have sugar at a party or such, they get such a rush that they feel sick from it. Their system is not use to it (try giving up alcohol for a few years and then having a glass of wine and you will see what I mean). So this alone becomes a major deterant for them, a far cry from stocking the pantry full of rubbish.
When they go to parties, we pack them up with sweet treats that have been sweatened with maple syrup or the like and send them on their way. All of the other kids tend to gravitate towards the food that they brought as well and our children feel a sense of pride about this, well so it appears to us. They also gain a sense of self worth everytime they say “no” to the rubbish, I think we all can relate to that in some way in our lives. I think learning how to say “no” is a really important, especially these days when there are so many people addicted to rubbish food, and other destructive behaviours.
When they go to the corner shop, they know what is good for them and they buy that. We know because they bring some back to us. We are fortunate to have an organic corner shop where we live, so I realise this is not a practicality for some people.
“Im interested to see how your intentions are communicated to your children?”… If you could be more specific I would love to enlighten you on this Arun. perhaps you mean the fact that we lovingly say “hey, you know how you felt last tiem you ate the rubbish, what are you going to do this time?”. I will let you guess their answer.
As for your article… “palatable foods”….
Do you realise just how many alternatives there are out there to all of the rubbish foods you stocked your pantry with Arun? I think you would be suprised that most of them are more palatable than the options you are giving your child.
I know this is always going to be a difficult question for parents. And there is nothing worse than someone else telling you how to ’suck eggs’ so to speak. I guess my primary point is that you as a ‘leader’, and ‘educater’ which I am assuming you hold yourself to be in the community Arun, have a certain responsibility to that community to guide in a responsible manner and to admit your faults when they are pointed out to you. If you continue to argue your position just so that you can be right, then I think people will start to lose interest in trying to be part of a discussion with you. It just doesn’t seem to get anywhere.
It does inspire some interesting conversations! I agree with Steve’s opinion of sugar being a poison - we don’t actually have any sugar in the house, we do have alot of delicious treats. My kids loosely self regualte their food from what we have.
I have really been looking at the whys and why nots of food controlling since encountering radical unschooling. Honestly it has been really wonderful and afirming. I have engaged Trinity my 5 year old in the conversation too. What comes up for me is that I find it impossible to go against where my heart leads me and being a ugar free family is where we are at right now. For Trinity she delights in the treats on offer in our house and understandes he goes pretty mental and gets a tummy ache after a party. She seems to accept I make some decisions and undersatnds why I make them, just as I value her decisions.
I am interested in where the line is drawn. I guess I have a no sugar in the house line and also not an endless supply of cash, there are man lines :). I’d love to provide organic blueberries when they are loaded in our trolley yet must explain that they are out of season and cost a small fortune. The same with too many treats. I exlain our budget and that I need to provide a weeks worth of food with what I have - carob buttons all week might make us feel a bit strange!
Trinity does have a budget in the healthfood store and chooses anything she likes for her trolley. This works really well for us - she seems to buy something for each of us.
When do you think self regulated diet should kick in? Would you be happy with a 10 month old choosing crisps as a first solid food?
what a ramble
Once a parent has proclaimed an item or topic “rubbish”, that is some heavy judgement laid on a child that might otherwish wish to learn (ie; experiment, try, eat, etc..) more about. Sugar is NOT a poison. Why would you LIE to your children about that? Once your children try it repeatedly (and I’m sure they will, once out from under the control and judgement of a parent) and find out it doesn’t kill them, then how do they trust anything else a parent says?
I prefer to build relationships on trust, not lies, even if my children make different choices than *I* might prefer.
Here’s a bit about sugar:
http://www.thedietchannel.com/the-Low-down-on-sugar.htm
If sugar was truly a poison, then fruits would kill us pretty quickly. Ridiculous.
And it seems that those bashing the sugar, are missing Arun’s entire POINT…that children don’t need to be controlled, that they learn about food naturally, just as they will any other topic. Controlling food choices and lying to children is much more harmful than any sugar!
Relationships are the crux of unschooling. I trust that each person should make their own choices about food….including my children. I’d sure resent someone trying to make me eat or not eat certain foods.
Through learning together, children can come to their own conclusions, without all the heavy judgement.
And interestingly enough, I have four radically unschooled children that very much enjoy helping grow and prepare all kinds of food…without any coercion or force on my part.
OK so we could have an arguement about refined and processed foods being addictive and poisonous (just look at childhood obesity) but I agree sugar is not the point. It is however a point which alot of parents feel strongly about ‘controlling’ so I think it is a valid point to raise.
Radical Unchooling seems to work well in some instances but I can’t agree that it is the best for every family. Sure if you have both parents healthy, active, interesting and driven to put all of their passion into it then great (and both have the opportunity to earn enough money and still spend enough tme with their child and partner and self). Sadly this is a reality for very few of us.
Many parents struggle with their own issues, work, PND, the demands of more than a couple of kids etc.
I can totally see Arun’s point is that children don’t need to be controlled Ren, and agree that children should learn about food naturally. I think the question is…..
“what is learning naturally?”
Is eating within your own budgets and choosing healthy organic food for your family while taking on board preferences of each member un-natural? Is it controlling?
Would it be more natural for me to buy $30 worth of disney princess yoghurt while denying other family member fresh organic fruit?
I am delighted to hear your children enjoy food without any coercion - wonderful
you know what…. so do mine
Oh and Ren you said
“I prefer to build relationships on trust, not lies, even if my children make different choices than *I* might prefer.”
are you saying that if I believe processed sugars to be bad for your health and the environment and tell my kids that is what I believe that I am being dishonest? Is my parenting full of lies and coertion? Why are you judging a mother who is following their heart?
Chrissy - I think you have the point well and truely. The point is “When do you think self regulated diet should kick in? Would you be happy with a 10 month old choosing crisps as a first solid food?”. There are lines as you have said, many of them. I am inspired that someone else stands in their integrity rather than just following a philosophy willy nilly just to be right.
Ren - Unschooling is a concept not a religion, what’s with all of this dogmatism?
And so because I have a strong opinion that is negative to yours therefore I am a lier that controls his children? Things that make you go hmmm.
Let me clarify the sugar is poison statement for you Ren… when I am referring to sugar I assumed we were all on the same page that I was referring to refined sugars. My appologies that was not made clear before, I make mistakes from time to time, heaps of them
When I am referring to ‘rubbish’ I am also referring to other substances that are dangerous and harmful lto the body such as the rancid un-saturated fats in potato chips, that Arun stocked his pantry with.
When I refer to poison I include anything in that category that acts like a poison in the body, even if it is not the type of poison that will kill you in an instant. Refined sugar acts like a poison in the body. I am also refering to the broad definition as in the dictionary version of what a poision is “to exert a harmful influence on, or to pervert”. There is a definition that makes a lot of sense to me by Dr William Martin “Medically: Any substance applied to the body, ingested or developed within the body, which causes or may cause disease. Physically: Any substance which inhibits the activity of a catalyst which is a minor substance, chemical or enzyme that activates a reaction.”
Enough said on that.
I don’t believe I am lying to my children when I educate them based on the best facts that I can find through careful research and consideration. That is a baseless judgement but I am glad to see that you also have your own judgements (read: ‘heavy, lying, controlling’). I can almost hear you saying “no I don’t, they are just observations”. At it’s primary level any thought is based on a judgement when you look at it. So that is a pretty senseless point.
I want to see the article on one of your blogs with the title “Radical Unschooling - Where I draw the line” - now that could draw out some honest and helpful discussion. It would be a vast improvement on the defensive position you all seem to take when someone comes along and rattles your cage a bit. Alll seems like fundametalism to me and I actually agree with some level of unschooling. I agree that there is a way to bring up your child so that they think for themself. I like to think I was brought up that way myself, hence my ability to not need to adopt a position like ‘radical unschooling’ and defend it at any cost, even if I am not sure about what I am talking about.
One more question Ren - “without any coercion or force on my part” - are you for real? Sounds like you are on another level alltogether. How can you say this statement, it’s simply incredulous. There are so many levels of communication, and how could your children not pick-up on your preferences (which I am sure you have lot’s of by the tone and content of your comment), so how can you make this statement.? No co-ercion at all huh?
I have a background in health (acupuncture) and I’ve also done a lot of reading on Weston Price, Mercola, TCM ideals, Healing with Whole Foods, etc. When my three kids were younger I did heavily control food. As they have gotten older I have become a lot less restrictive about it.
We have also been following Natural Learning for some time (my oldest is almost 6). Originally I thought Radical Unschoolers were nut jobs but more recently I have been doing further reading (including Ren’s site above, Rue Kream’s book etc.) and I am starting to see there is some validity in it. Personally, I’m not prepared to fill my cupboards with foods I consider rubbish (yet or ever, I haven’t decided), mostly because I don’t want to support these kinds of businesses. But while out we do allow freedom in choice… I am also seeing in my oldest that calling these foods “treats” or “junk” is an issue because he really wants them all the time.
I can definitely understand both points of view. It is a huge leap to go from feeding your kids a whole food diet, to allowing them the freedom to choose for themselves. In the end, our kids are individuals and we must do what we feel is right by making informed choices.
wow! where to start…
thanks guys for the rich debate. Also thanks for your intervention Ren because you make me look like “soft cop”.
So… firstly I do aspire to a diet of few processed foods and synthetic chemicals. I would not say that I am as ‘purist’ as you sound Steve.
Its similar to mobile phones. Im pretty sure they have health hazards associated with them… but i use them. I try to avoid it when possible but frankly, i dont overly stress about it.
I think the major paradigm shift here is that I am coming from a starting point of prioritising relationship and connection through no control, while you seem to be coming from a starting point of prioritising physical well being and nutrition.
We have completely different points of departure. I personally do not think they are always mutually exclusive and feel that there are overlaps. (So before i offend you its not that im saying that you do not have connection with your kids… its just that that is my absolute starting point.)
In your world view if occasionally you have to assert your authority and stop your child from having something that you think inappropriate to eat things are grand. In my world if my daughter has something I think is not the best to eat at that moment but i maintain a non coercive relationship with her things are grand.
This point of departure for me was a very conscious one. We did not come to radical unschooling through any philosophical premise. It was our daughter. She wanted to experiment – to try food that we said was “not good for her” or watch tv because she enjoyed it etc etc.
We tried to offer alternatives, explanations etc etc… but her need was still there.
So we had two options. To force the matter or to “let go of control”. We, coming from that focus on the relationship decided to let go.
Of course guidance, appropriate info etc is still there… But if our daughter really wants somethign we are respectful of that request… even affirming! We are really trying to let go of the guilt and judgement that we used to apply to things that she wanted, which for us became a block to our relationship.
Steve you seem focussed on the “line”. Well I have not yet hit a point of drawing a line with our daughter. Early days yet and who knows… maybe there is one out there for me, I promise ill email you if i find one. In the meantime im not big on hypotheticals.
In terms of when to start. We try to be respectful of our 14 month old son Z but of course we are constantly making more decisions for him. I dont think there is an age point where you automatically make the switch… for us it seemed obvious with who our daughter was when she was around 4yrs that it could work. She also grew into that responsibility once it was given to her so its a dynamic thing.
I too believe that this is a personal thing. Everything I have written to date has been from that perspective and I am not pushing this on anyone.
I do believe that it has to be right for you and for us this is right.
So if my daughter has a little refined sugar (which we generally do not have in our pantry incidentally)… Im ok with that.
Does that make me a lesser parent… apparently from your point of departure the answer is “yes”. I can see your perspective because i did used to share much of it.
Maybe we should just agree to live and let live… who knows maybe our kids could hang out at the park together? Id love to try some of that food you were talking about.
Connection is my parenting priority, certainly not food control. My children don’t have a facination with TV and processed foods at the moment as I said I don’t deny processed sugar - I don’t provide it either. Perhaps if it comes up we will arrive at a similar place Arun… who knows.
Firstly i must thank you Arun for creating this site
and for the confidence to put forward your truth.
I share similar struggles with the concepts being debated here and have been ’sitting on the fence’ waiting to see what i will do..which i believe i cannot decide yet. This decision will most probably depend on my childs personality, relationship,values, comprehension etc etc
I thank you all for your contributions here, it has helped me a lot. i have gained an insight into your many different views and when it comes to my final desion i can rest assured i have covered all bases.
Admittedly the sugar stuff came up more for us when we moved near family. Before that in many ways M had a relatively “sheltered” existence with most of our friends and peers choosing similar food choices to us.
This broader exposure was perhaps the catalyst for our changes. But it was also seeing how M was quite controlling in her play with other children. That really made me reflect on what I was doing…
gotta go… kids a calling!
Agreed. Different points of departure, and again agree not anmutually exclusive.
“Purist” - maybe that would be relative to …….? Or maybe to ……..?
You have made an incorrect assumption that I stop my child ren from eating sugar. I still give them a choice, however I am upfront about my preference and experience, and educate and challenge my children to think about the consequences. And I certainly do not make it available both on the grounds that I do not want to support an industry that I am not in alignment with and also that I don’t want it around my kids so they think it is ‘normal’. I also supply them with awesome and nutritious super sweets that build there bodies and minds. I would do the same for any of my friends and many visit regualry just to be around food they can both enjoy and that nourishes and inspires their hearts and minds.
“Maybe we should just agree to live and let live” - Arun, if you were about to pick up a Brown Snake thinking it was a python, and I knew it was a Brown Snake… Man I am gunna take you down in one hell of a burst to preserve your life. I could make a more subtle example… if you were eating ‘rubbish’ I would ask you if you knew what was in it, and if you did I would ask you if you would like some feedback. If you said NO, I would say OK. If you said YES, I would give to you straight as a friend. and thats what my kids are, my friends, and I do not compromise my integrity with my friends.
The other day my daughter went past a KFC and said “hey look it’s McDonalds”. She can read, she just has no frame of reference for the marketing. We don’t have TV, but obviously have the internet.
The lines - I guarantee you are already drawing them Arun, whether you are conscious of it or not. Everybody I have met, carries some form of judgement and some form of prejudice and preference. Whether you like it or not you communicate this regularly to your child through verbal, and non-verbal communication.
“I’d love to try some of that food you were talking about.” - Arun I would love to share them with you. I got a lot of the recipies from the site I came from to follow this discussion . Here is a link to their recipes http://editor.nourishedmagazine.com.au/topics/healthy-recipes
and also from here…
http://cookingnt.com/default.aspx
Has M’s play changed now?
ok, this is my last round on this thread…
Michael – Thanks for your kind words about the site, Im glad this debate has helped you clarify your own thinking
Chrissy – yes things have changed, though M falls back to that when she gets nervous occasionally. In addition I feel that our relationship has really deepened and that we are more connected than ever.
Melissa – thanks for your timely “there are two sides to every story” intervention…
And of course i wont forget you Steven – yes we have lines in the sense of guidance, as you do to. Yes we also have lines in terms of budget contraints as Chrissy pointed out before. We also work out solutions that work for us all, so its not as though M always gets exactly what she wants… but she is a part of a discussion to find solutions.
However when she requests something we do respect, accept & support it to the best of our ability. Yes, that might mean buying something you would consider to be “rubbish” for our pantry.
re the snake thing. I found that interesting and ironic. Although i personally would not go so far, Ive read of many radical unschoolers who would take the same position against “control” as you take on “eating rubbish”. I guess that’s the point with different points of departure… people will tend to see brown snakes in different guises.
btw – i already thanke joanne for the recipes which i honestly did like.
Just to jump into the bear pit (or is that brown snake pit?) briefly - the idea of unschooling no doubt comes into play much more around the time a child turns four, since this is when Theory of Mind is appropriated, making the child capable of thinking in a manner they previously just weren’t capable of. Discussing options for nutrition and the reasoning behind them is obviously important prior to that but I personally will err on the side of protection rather than exposure before this age simply due to neurological development. Given Arun is talking about different approaches between his infant son and >4yrs daughter I am not at all surprised he takes a mildly different approach since this is totally sensible and age-appropriateness is all about being an aware parent.
However after the age of four I will have to re-evaluate my approach to DD’s diet and fully intend to. As it is I explained about the hideous nature of hot chips (in slightly more objective terms) to my 22mth DD. She has never really shown an interest (admittedly with very little exposure), until recently they were on a shared table we were sitting at. She started crying and asking for one. I resisted. It continued. I explained again about how they were not nutritious, etc. (and possibly baked in animal fat as well) which of course is all way above her head. But when I realised she was not going down without a fight I conceded that it was obviously important to her to have some. She took one bite of one chip and that was it. That was all she was interested in. I realised then that I needed to have more faith in her own knowledge and curiosity - the combination of the two is where my job as parent comes into play.
Anyway, that is about the only incident I’ve had so far regarding food with her. Just thought I’d share a little anecdote amongst all the food for thought in here.
Thanks Arun!
Cheers, Cass
No need to explain yourself…you are doing a wonderful job! I am truly in awe and inspired!
Not many chips these days are fried in animal fat… it would be better if they were cooked that way than the usual rancid, unsaturated vegetable oils that are proclaimed as the healthy option.
I have been experimenting with the whole radical unschooling thing for the last couple of days (I realise that isn’t long enough, but I feel confident to make decisions for our family regarding it). I am appreciative of you bringing this whole thing to light, Arun. If you hadn’t of written this article and the book review on Parenting A Free Child, I would never have picked the book off Eleanor’s conference stand (which I believe you had some influence in her stocking, too).
I understand how these ideals work for some families and although it has made me more mindful of controlling children (not that I was ever overly controlling), RU wont work for our family. We are a firey family of five and all have our own needs. It comes down to this: it is not necessary for me to sacrifice my needs and my Self to raise free children. If I have to say “no” on occasion and have good reason for it, then so be it.
All the best to you on this journey.
ok i said it was my last round of comments but could not resist… thanks shawna, appreciate your comment
Hey Melissa – thanks for sharing your experience.
For my part the thought of navigating the needs, feelings and complexities of five kids plus a partner plus myself brings my brain near exploding point.
I know that there are many large radical unschooling families, but in all honesty … for me personally I am reasonably confident that I would find that near impossible.
This approach is not natural to me and it takes all my capacity at times to creatively help facilitate “win win” solutions with the two munchkins, my lover and myself.
Similarly if I was a single parent I dont think id be up for it either, though i know many single parents (or “effectively single parents with the partner hardly there, or hostile etc) do it also.
I love the way you are open to other approaches Melissa, and I am happy that you are navigating a path that works for you and therefore your family.
3 kids, 5 family members.
Having read Arun’s original article, Joanne’s statement from Nourished magazine, and then all these comments, I feel I have to have a say as well!
First of all, Joanne was not dissing any of the ‘unschooling’ methods or opinions written in the article. Her primary concern was of the nutrition content of the foods on offer to ‘M’.
To her, sugar, refined and junk foods, (full of chemicals and rancid, free radical and trans fats), are just as harmful as caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, and even soy milk. I noticed Arun, in your article that you were not offering your daughter a choice of tea/coffee drinks, alcohol - (very palateable in a barcadi breezer) or cigarettes.
You might think that putting refined sugar with these latter dangers a bit exaggerated and not of the same calibre of dangerousness. However the increasing rate of child obesity and type 2 diabetes in the last ten years, in my opinion, puts sugar and junk food in that very same category. Many children in western countries choose junk, and their bodies (as well as our hospitals) show the ravages of it.
For me, this was all Joanne was trying to put across, as her expertise is in nutrition, and she knows what she’s talking about, just as you Arun know what you’re talking about when it comes to Unschooling.
I don’t think you would lose face by admitting that stocking a cupboard full of junk food for a 4yr old to choose from was not such a good idea.
Arun - I think you have an issue with setting boundaries and also a lack of integrity. I think this is probably the reason ‘M’ is so bossy - she feels the need to set boundaries and direction because she is not getting it from you.
It really surfaced in the way you say “ok, this is my last round on this thread…” and then go back on your word by joining the conversation again. Ironically you re-join the conversation when the opinion begins to sway back to be supporting your need to be right and your need to avoid admitting that your position on ‘the stocking up of your pantry with junk for your 4 y/old to choose from’ is completely flawed and illogical. It also showed up each time you couldn’t answer questions or points directly, and face up to your mistakes.
You could have turned the comments off and the conversation would have ended there. You could have stayed out of it, but you chose instead to ride the wave of support that was starting to come your way.
The point is that you do not have enough integrity and therefore you are hiding behind the ideologies of unschooling so that you do not have to ’step up’ and keep your word and have direction and boundaries.
I sincerely hope that feedback serves you in some way.
deep sigh…
Arun, I am so impressed with your kindness and gentleness. Really. You are able to see people’s responses to you and your openness as well-intentioned gifts. I’m not very good at that.
My two children are completely radically unschooled. Right now I am sitting on the sofa bed with my son Simon who is playing a game on the PS2 on our television. He is telling me, excitedly the details of his game. I’m having a cup of coffee. He’s drinking water.
In our cupboards and on our shelves are fruit and crisps and candy and tofu and soy milk and cow milk and soda and juice and vegetables and beans and cake and homemade sourdough bread and store bought, white bread and bacon from the farm shop up the road and candy bars and refined sugar and white flour. And we eat all of it. And my two children don’t have diabetes nor are they obese, nor, for that matter am I. I’m not even overweight, as judged by my BMI.
Arun, you absolutely got it right:
“I think the major paradigm shift here is that I am coming from a starting point of prioritising relationship and connection through no control, while you seem to be coming from a starting point of prioritising physical well being and nutrition.”
Unschooling is about the child-parent relationship before it is about the “evils” of sugar or the “inherent danger” of television.
Anyhow, I should actually stop. I could say a lot more, but it doesn’t seem fair to Arun to rile up an already riled audience. And I like Arun.
Schuyler
Just for the record… my priority is my relationship and connection to my children and also my wife, friends & community. In fact deepening my connection with all of my relationships is my priority, including my relationship to food, nutrition, exercise etc. etc.
Not quite sure how you lot get this whole thing so screwy. It’s like your saying nutrition and physical wellbeing are somehow removed from relationship and connection with your child.
Oh and the “Deep sigh” - sounded very condescending, but hey it’s your blog Arun.
Wow Arun,
What a convo.
I\’ve responded to your response over at my blog.
http://editor.nourishedmagazine.com.au/articles/whats-real
Come on over, we\’ll have a cuppa and some healthy treats.
Blessings
Joanne
Hey Steve
why not extend those lovely words about connection and community to this blog community. I can’t help thinking of ‘The Portrait of Dorian Gray’, where you sound like you’re doing great things with your family, friends and community but this is the place where the ugly stuff is being stored. It would be easier to believe what you’re saying about connection being your major priority if you were following that example here. I’ve really enjoyed the discussion though, and what you’ve had to say about sugar, in spite of the attacks on Arun’s ‘integrity’ etc.
I’m not a radical anything but love having my ideas and perspectives expanded. My main issue with the radical unschooling (we call ourselves plain old ‘unschoolers’) is the emphasis put on always getting to ‘yes’. I attempt in many ways to meet A(7)’s needs and wants but also think it’s just as important to offer a loving ‘no’ sometimes and listen to her as the grief and disappointment comes out. She’s always full of life and joy once she’s offloaded the feelings. Mind you, I’m not always able to offer the ‘no’ in a loving, connected way!
As for the sugar, I have had a full-blown addiction since A was born (triggered by early traumatic stuff that the birth stirred up for me, which I’m attempting to deal with) but it means I am often unable to make healthy food choices myself. A has been witness to my unhealthy eating and as a result I feel it would be unsafe to let her loose in the lolly shop (figuratively speaking). I have a feeling that once I’ve dealt with most of the emotional stuff behind this damaging addiction and my cravings drop, hers will too. Kids seem to have a way of showing you where you need to do your own work! She gets to make many choices about the food she eats and I find, as long as the emotional baggage is regularly cleared out, she is happily co-operative and easy-going anyway.
Maybe I’ll go and read Rue Kream’s book again but I can’t let go of this feeling that young people want to know that adults are thinking well about them and sometimes that means making decisions for them that they don’t necessarily agree with in that moment. I agree totally that they live in an adult-centric world that is truly horrible and boring for them in so many ways. I’ve tried to set it up that A is a powerful, confident girl who makes many decisions about her own life but I also think she needs boundaries and limits which, as a child, it’s her job to kick against…it’s how she gets to feel safe and secure in the world…she learns where my boundaries are and in turn is able to work out her own. I don’t see how that happens when a person’s every whim is attempted to be accommodated…but I’m open to hear how that might be so!
Well, that’s all a bit long-winded, might leave it there.
cheers
Wendy
Wendy - thanks for the feedback. Point taken.
You’re welcome Steve. I appreciate that you were open to what was said. This is a really interesting discussion and the safer we feel, the more likely we are to really open up and be honest about the places where we struggle the most as parents without fear of being attacked, judged or criticised.
cheers
Wendy
Wendy - you are a very wise woman.
I quite possibly was lacking in empathy, and I thank you for pointing that out.
I guess my ego was reacting to the attacks, judgements and criticisms that were being overtly and covertly directed towards ‘me’, and my so called ‘position’. Of course none of these are real anyway.
At the end of the day we are all just doing our best as parents, and I really believe there is a ‘higher’ way we can find together. I can’t think of another way of putting it really.
It is about feeling safe, but I guess there needs to be safety to express some of the relatively ‘darker’ elements as well?
Hi everyone,
thanks for your latest posts steve. After you said i had no integrity etc. I actually posted you off this list. The email is below. Unfortunately you never got it because the email address you have been registering to post through was not your real one.
I posted the “deep sigh” comment when i did not hear back from you. It was not meant as condescending… it was came from disappointment at the level this discussion was taking.
Im pleased things are picking up and hope we can learn to “live and let live”… and maybe learn from one another on the way.
all the best
arun
From: “:: anne | arun ::”
Date: 22 June 2007 4:10:44 PM
To: steve
Subject: wow steve, thats getting pretty vicious isnt it?
Hey Steve,
im sending this off list because i did not want to bicker on the site.
Im surprised at your last post. Before that although i disagreed with you I found your conduct reasonable.
I did not weigh into the food argument with my additional post but i did feel motivated to respond to melissa. She said she had explored and tried Radical Unschooling and it was not for her family. Is that part of a “wave of support”… I did not think so.
I really did feel a need to validate and acknowledge her given all too often in the radical unschooling community there is a real sense of being judgemental, like this is the only path for everyone. I did not respond to Karen who pretty much agreed with you but again i really did want to validate Melissa.
btw – you may have misread my other post – My daughter had controlling issues in play BEFORE we started this journey and it was one of my motivations to reflect on my own parenting at the time, which in all honesty was relatively controlling.
I regret you feel i lack integrity for my decision. And Im sorry for the tone and what I perceived to be quite angry nature of your last post.
I really do wish you all the best Steve and I thank you for getting me re motivated to be pro active about food again (we tend to go through waves here).
All the best
arun
Thanks for your comment Arun.
I never give out my real address, as I don’t like it when people spam me, same way you saw fit to do.
My feedback to you still stands. And for the record, I never said you have ‘no’ integrity. I said you have a lack. I am sorry if that hurt you, but it was meant in a different way, as a challenge.
I feel myself lacking in integrity in many ways. I sprout off about being a good parent and then when the kids are ‘pulling a number on me’ I lose the plot and fall back into my old angry patterns. God, I could go on and on about the ways that I am out of my integrity. I don’t have to beat myself up with it - but choose to use it as a challenge to grow and develop in to the best parent I can be.
Oh and Arun - I love you.
~~Everybody I have met, carries some form of judgement and some form of prejudice and preference.~~
Of course. The point isn’t to rid oneself of all preferences…though the buddhist path is about letting go of attachments.
The point was that one can have preferences and ideas without loading judgment onto children’s choices. My children are their own people, with their own ideas. They aren’t blank slates, even at birth. I value their autonomy enough to share my own ideas without telling them something is “rubbish” or “bad” or other.
They can take what they like from my ideas, when asked. I trust that not everyone is going to make choices similar to mine.
Here’s a preference for you…I think meat is nasty. I don’t have any desire to eat something or kill for my meal. My children happen to like chicken and turkey. So we have it in the freezer ad I cook it for them. I could do a list of differences and ways that they KNOW my preference but also feel safe making different choices than I.
Telling someone that a substance is poison, is pretty harsh. Especially when there is no proof to that end. Telling them you choose not to eat it and feel it is unhealthy, while trusting that they will make their own choices, is another matter all together.
I believe food controls are more damaging than any health effects of sugar. Making healthy choices readily available is better than limiting someone, in my opinion, which I’m happy to share.:)
Hi. This is all really interesting food for thought. I hope that when I start a family someday, I can be as conscious and informed and strongly convicted about my decisions as many of you are. It’s definitely inspired and challenged me to think about issues like this for myself, and what sort of path I would like to take when I eventually become a parent.
I would like to point out an interesting linguistic observation: In reading each comment, I was struck by how often single words and phrases were interpreted so very differently. Words like “poison” had a totally different connotation for the writer than they did for some of the audience. And I think, unfortunately, harsh words and offense/hurt feelings came from interpreting things rather literally or more generally. Each writer had their own intent, their own perspective, and often, text conveys the emotions we bring to it, rather than the emotions of the writer. It seems a bit like focusing on the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law… or in this case, the “letter” of the comment versus the spirit.
I think some of the criticism of Arun was harsh and personal rather than a constructive argument or disagreement with his philosophy. As Stephanie Pearl-McPhee stated about her blog, it’s a virtual living room. Everyone is welcome as long as everyone else is treated with respect and courtesy. I think, as respectful adults, we shouldn’t write things we wouldn’t say to someone face-to-face.
I love discussion, and this thread definitely gave some wonderful food for thought. I look forward to reading, learning, and struggling more with all these ideas, and I hope to make the choice that’s right for me. Thanks to each and every commenter, and thanks to Arun, for such inspiration and conversation. It’s truly beautiful.
Well, it’s time for me to add a little bit as I was the one that realised that Joanne’s article was written about Arun and that they had actually met each other at a party at my place and so the “backlash” began.
Well… my “Weston Price” journey began nearly five years ago. I was a dedicated vegetarian and had had a low fat/low protein diet for 17 years (since the age of 14). By the time I went to Sally Fallon’s seminar (founding president of the WAP foundation www.westonaprice.org) I had some nagging health problems despite having always had what I thought was a very healthy diet. At the time, we were thinking about starting a family. Sally’s seminar was mind-blowing for me and by the end of the seminar, I felt that I had an obligation to my as yet unconceived child to prepare my body and to give that child the best possible start in life. So I gradually changed my diet and with the help of various online communities, my health was totally transformed. We went on to conceive and give birth to a very healthy child who almost never gets ill. He’s now 2.
Through meeting and getting to know Anne & Arun, we are very drawn to “radical” unschooling particularly after reading Ruth’s book (thanks Arun). Now, how do I marry the idea of non-regulation of food with my very strong ideas about nutrition and diet?
I do believe that children can be taught (helped) to listen to their bodies and that they can learn choose the right foods for them. There was a study done where babies with various health problems were presented with an array of foods. Day after day, the babies chose the foods that contained what they were deficient in. For example, one baby had rickets. this baby drank cod liver oil (by its own choice) day in and day out until its rickets were cured.
In one of the online communities that I frequented in the early days of this new food/health journey of mine, there was a woman called Heidi whose intelligence, knowledge and ability to share and explain her approach and experiences impressed me a lot. Heidi described how she hadn’t regulated and didn’t need to regulate her children’s diets. She made available an array of (healthy) foods which her children were free to choose from. This included things like cookies (her family was gluten intolerant so they were gluten free cookies). She didn’t dictate what or how much her daughter ate - in other words, she didn’t worry if her daughter didn’t want to eat breakfast or didn’t eat much on a particular day. At times it seemed like her daughter was overdosing on only one type of food but over time she observed that her daughter ate a balanced diet and a whole array of foods.
Heidi also didn’t restrict or ban her children from buying junk food. Occasionally her kids (probably out of curiosity or peer pressure) would go and buy candy, chips or soft drink but invariably, they would have a small amount and then the packet would be abandoned and unfinished. She also found her husband would do the same thing, he would buy a soft drink but wouldn’t finish it. It seemed that her family felt so nourished and satisified on the foods she was providing them that they had no desire or craving for junk foods. Her children commented how they felt fuller and more satisfied after her gluten free sourdough pizza than the ordinary stuff that they used to eat. (by the way, this doesn’t mean everyone needs to be gluten free - but for them it had serious impacts on Heidi’s health in particular).
Taiji (my 2 year old son) is only 2 so I can’t comment on whether it’s possible to raise him following Weston Price style dietary principles and unregulating his food but I am experimenting with this. What that means is I try to provide him with a variety of really good nourishing foods and give him free choice in what/when and how much he eats. That means that sometimes he only wants to eat cucumber and other times he’s only interested in licking all the butter off the bread. I try to follow what his body seems to be telling him. So if he isn’t interested in eating, I don’t worry or try to force him to eat. Sure enough, he’ll eat like a bird one day and then a day or so later will eat like a horse. Like Heidi, I also find that he eats a variety of foods but it won’t always be in one sitting - it’s over time.
My own experience is that when I try to control and restrict what I eat, I rebel against that and I start to desire the things I am restricting (e.g. chocolate) but if instead, I don’t “regulate” it and give in to that craving but then also address it by stepping up my nutrition, then the craving goes away. I think it’s also good at times to go off the rails and notice how my body and “I” don’t feel as good on less nourishing foods than when I’m eating a really nutritionally optimal diet. A little “poison” here and there is not going to be seriously detrimental to someone’s health and I think if children are raised in a family where a lot of healthy foods are readily available to them and that is coupled with healthy family dynamics and family eating time, they will naturally make the healthy choices.
An example Ruth makes in her “Parenting a free child” unschooling book is when her daughter is at a friend’s birthday party. She comes running up to her with a bowl of jelly (jello) and asks mum to hold it while she goes and has some broccoli first. (she was worried all the jello would be gone by the time she’d had her broccoli).
Yesterday, my son went to a friend’s birthday party. Apparently at the party, he ate all the cucumber out of the salad first and then started demanding cake along with the other kids. When he got his cake, he proceeded to lick all the icing off and left the cake untouched. “What was in the icing?” I asked my friend. “dark chocolate, cream, and butter” she replied. Well, he obviously knew what the best bit was!!
Filippa
p.s. For those who don’t know, Weston Price Foundation basically teaches a return to traditional diets with foods and ingredients prepared in traditional ways (e.g. sourdough breads, cultured foods such as yoghurt, traditional fats, etc). Weston Price was a dentist who traveled the world in the early 1900s studying traditional societies around the world and observed how they had optimal health on the diets that they had been following for generations but quickly developed all the “modern” degenerative diseases once they started eating modern, processed foods. For more info see www.westonaprice.org
I believe what you’re describing is a lot like many unschoolers approach Flippa. I think providing a lot of yummy, healthy choices is a big part of the picture that many people miss when we say “let them choose”.
The book you mentioned is actually by Rue Kream, a dear friend.
My four children are never sick, and they do choose a variety of foods including processed, sugary foods at times. I mean NEVER sick. My 6y.o. hasn’t ever visited a doctor for being ill and has never had antibiotics of any kind. My 13 and 10 y.o. took antibiotics ONCE each in their entire lives. 17y.o. had them a few times as a toddler and then we learned about herbal healing and homeopathics.
6y.o. who has been extremely healthy, is probably my worst eater of the bunch. Go figure. He also nursed for 4.5 years.
Wow. I feel like I’ve just been in Star Wars, all the “music” and the dialogue with the line “I am your FATHER” appearing here and there throughout 40 comments. I read the whole thing in one run, you see and am a bit overwhelmed…. and late (it’s almost December).
Arun you are a gracious host and I am glad to have been introduced to your blog parenting pit. Love the name and enjoyed yours and Anne’s writings on your parenting journey. I’ve been an avid unschooling mom for over 4 years myself and, like you, came to the conclusion that our lil one is amazingly able to choose so much more wisely than I could ever have imagined possible. Unlike me and his dad, ds doesn’t know he can’t make his own choices. I still have such a time deciding *anything* … it’s crazy sometimes, and the biggest reason, I feel, is because I “know” I can’t. LOL. It’s very healing to see ds having no trouble with it and someday I’ll be as confident as he is about it. I’m just that it comes so naturally to him.
this discussion took place a while ago, but as I am only just reading it now, thought I´d just make a quick comment about my on real life experience on this: i have a daughter aged 8 and son who´s now 3yo. my daughter was controlled, co-erced and restircted for the first 4 years of her life. I ended up with a very picky, small-portion eater, ¨who didn´t want to try out new things and who focused on all the “bad stuff”. I changed my parenting totally four years ago, after having read about RU on the Internet. My relationship with dd totally changed for the better, and her food issues gradually, but surely faded out and went away. At the birth of my son, I was determined not to make the same mistakes, and at 3yo he chooses veggies as well as candy, leaves the rest of a piece of cake when he´s had enough, sometimes chooses a green been over ice cream if presented at the same time. My daugter does to…now….but she unfortunately had to go through a period of power struggles with me first…
My point is, that I have xperienced the two ways of approaching it, and defintely can advocate for the free approach. My children don´t choose “junk” whenever they can, precisely because they know they can have it whenever they want. On the contrary, dd is actually very aware of and interested in what healthy eating is…
peace from Mette, Denmark
Time, and distance, are not so important, Mette. We live only a few hour’s drive from Arun, yet I’ve only just read all this. Earlier today I was advised that giving my children free reign over their diets would result in their eating all kinds of junk. And I thought this person knew “my kids”! My response was that although the person in question has the wherewithal to consume whatever foods and non-foods they like, do they then go and make irresponsible choices for themselves and those whose diets they control? Of course not! Why do we assume children, young people, cannot make informed and wise choices, once they’re accustomed to having the power to do so?
I’m over the whole label game, not just “homeschooling”, “unschooling”, etc, but even “parent” and “child”, and our little group is moving into whatever it is our changing approach to living, loving and learning becomes. Hope when we all meet each other on the ocean shore we can all join in with firesticks, dancing, drums and eyes flashing with joy, not standing apart holding little flags and glaring at each other with those cold hard gazes backed up by assumptions and certitude… (No-one in particular in mind!)